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Debates · Vaccines and autism

Have comparative studies of vaccinated versus unvaccinated children been conducted to assess health outcomes, including possible links between vaccines and autism?

4 shows · 4 speakers · published Oct 28, 2026 · updated Nov 9, 2026

The debate

Over late 2025, podcast guests debated whether strong comparative studies of vaccinated versus unvaccinated children exist to assess health outcomes and autism. De Becker (The Joe Rogan Experience) and Tenpenny (Culture Apothecary) say such studies exist comparing vaccinated and unvaccinated children across many health outcomes. Siri (DarkHorse Podcast) argues that key official reviews and CDC records show a lack of vaccinated versus unvaccinated studies on the full schedule and on autism.

Where each side stands

Yes, such comparative studies exist assessing health outcomes and potential links between vaccines and autism.

Gavin de Becker (The Joe Rogan Experience) · Wendy Zukerman (Science Vs) · Dr. Sherri Tenpenny (Culture Apothecary)

Tenpenny (Culture Apothecary) says at least 60 studies compare the health of completely vaccinated children with completely unvaccinated children. Zukerman (Science Vs) says multiple large studies involving well over a million children found no link between the MMR vaccine and autism diagnoses. De Becker (The Joe Rogan Experience) says only three non‑government studies compare vaccinated and unvaccinated children for all health outcomes, and no government study has done this.

3 claims, in their words
  • “there were no, they had never done a study, there are now three, but not done by the government, of comparing Vaccinated kids to unvaccinated kids for all health outcomes”
    Gavin de Becker · The Joe Rogan Experience · 2025-11-13 · 1:19:06 cites a number
  • “One of the first follow-up studies looked at every kid diagnosed with autism in a part of the UK. This was almost 500 kids, and it found no link between the measles, mumps, and rubella vaccine and autism. Soon, more and more studies would come out involving well over a million children, all showing no connection between getting the vaccine”
    Wendy Zukerman · Science Vs · 2025-11-27 · 14:43 cites a number
  • “there's at least 60. They stopped at 60. That really compared the health of completely vaccinated children to completely unvaccinated children.”
    Dr. Sherri Tenpenny · Culture Apothecary · 2025-12-02 · 1:01:48 cites a number

No, such comparative studies either have not been conducted or are insufficient to assess autism.

Aaron Siri (DarkHorse Podcast)

Siri (DarkHorse Podcast) cites a 2013 Institute of Medicine report saying it could not find studies comparing vaccinated with unvaccinated children to evaluate the safety of the full childhood schedule. Siri says a 2012 Institute of Medicine review reported that for many claimed injuries, including autism, available studies were insufficient to conclude vaccines do not cause them. Siri says the Institute of Medicine in 1991 could not determine whether the pertussis vaccine causes autism because no studies on that question existed. Siri says the CDC has not produced studies showing that DTaP and other early‑life vaccines do not cause autism, even after a 2020 federal court order.

15 claims, in their words
  • “I literally sued them, chased them through federal court, and this was what they could produce. And, you know, I've since 2020 still see nothing. We've even given them another chance. ... They still have not produced any studies to support that that claim doesn't cause autism.”
    Aaron Siri · DarkHorse Podcast · 2025-12-24 · 2:17:32 cites an event2020 federal court stipulation in Southern District of New York
  • “in 2013, right, the Institute of Medicine was commissioned by HHS to, to, to look at the safety of the entire child immunization schedule. ... what they said is, we can't find any studies that compare vaccinated with unvaccinated kids, which is what we would need.”
    Aaron Siri · DarkHorse Podcast · 2025-12-24 · 2:33:17 cites a study2013 Institute of Medicine report
  • “in 2013, right, the Institute of Medicine was commissioned by HHS to, to, to look at the safety of the entire child immunization schedule. They were commissioned before that, sorry. They published a report in 2013, and what they said is, we can't find any studies that compare vaccinated with unvaccinated kids, which is what we would need.”
    Aaron Siri · DarkHorse Podcast · 2025-12-24 · 2:34:01 cites a study2013 Institute of Medicine report
  • “Congress told HHS, hey, we need a review of whether or not pertussis vaccine can cause these conditions, and one of them is autism. ... HHS commissions the Institute of Medicine ... IOM comes back in 1991 and says, Can't tell you anything about pertussis and autism because you've done zero studies on this issue.”
    Aaron Siri · DarkHorse Podcast · 2025-12-24 · 2:12:59 cites a study1991 Institute of Medicine report
  • “The CDC went and then commissioned a white paper for hundreds of thousands of dollars on how to do this comparison. ... They published this white paper in 2015. They still haven't done, sorry, they still haven't published that study.”
    Aaron Siri · DarkHorse Podcast · 2025-12-24 · 2:35:02 cites a studyCDC Vaccine Safety Datalink white paper 2015
  • “there was only one study they could find in 2012 that the IM could find, and that study did show an association between DTaP vaccine and autism, but the Institute of Medicine threw it out because they said there was no unvaccinated group, and it was based on VAERS reports”
    Aaron Siri · DarkHorse Podcast · 2025-12-24 · 2:16:28 cites a study2012 Institute of Medicine review
  • “when they came back, they said for over 130 of them, the most commonly claimed injuries, they said, Sorry, Herson, CDC, we can't tell you vaccines don't cause autism. You haven't done the studies, including whether pertussis diphtheria and tetanus vaccine don't cause autism.”
    Aaron Siri · DarkHorse Podcast · 2025-12-24 · 2:14:28 cites a study2012 Institute of Medicine review
  • “the judge entered as an order of the court in 2020. So here it is, I've got, what more can I do to get the science? I mean, I literally sued them, chased them through federal court, and this was what they could produce. And, you know, I've since 2020 still see nothing.”
    Aaron Siri · DarkHorse Podcast · 2025-12-24 · 2:17:22 cites an event2020 court stipulation with CDC and DOJ
  • “There's no studies that support that DTaP does not cause autism, right? ... He goes, oh, okay, there are no studies.”
    unidentified speaker · The Joe Rogan Experience · 2026-03-03 · 2:12:00 personal experiencedeposition of Dr. Stanley Plotkin
  • “we sent a Freedom of Information Act request, FOIA request. To the CDC, and we said, hey, your website says vaccines do not cause autism. Great. Please give us the studies that show that hep B vaccine, given three times in the first six months of life, do not cause autism. Please give us the studies that show that DTaP”
    unidentified speaker · The Joe Rogan Experience · 2026-03-03 · 2:06:06 cites an eventFOIA request to the CDC
  • “I deposed her about vaccines and autism. And I said, do you have a study that shows hep B vaccine doesn't go to autism? ... She didn't have any for hep B, for hep, for the ones I just took, the first six months of life.”
    unidentified speaker · The Joe Rogan Experience · 2026-03-03 · 2:12:59 personal experiencedeposition of Dr. Kathryn Edwards
  • “There are no studies. They could not produce one that showed the vaccines given in the first six months of life do not cause autism.”
    unidentified speaker · The Joe Rogan Experience · 2026-03-03 · 2:08:35 cites an eventcourt stipulation and order in Southern District of New York in 2019 between CDC and ICAN
  • “the CDC webpage on vaccines and autism has now been updated, and it says now that there's effectively no studies to show the vaccines in the first six months of life do not cause autism. It now says that, and that we have mis, that the CDC has misled the public.”
    unidentified speaker · The Joe Rogan Experience · 2026-03-03 · 2:27:12 cites an event
  • “Those 20 studies were put into a settlement agreement between the CDC and ICANN, my client. The DOJ signed it on behalf of the CDC, I signed it on behalf of my client, and a federal judge in the Southern District of New York entered it as an order of the court in 2019, I believe it was. And there”
    unidentified speaker · The Joe Rogan Experience · 2026-03-03 · 2:08:52 cites an event2019 settlement agreement in Southern District of New York federal court
  • “One of them was an Institute of Medicine review from 2012 that canvassed all the literature on whether DTaP vaccine does or does not cause autism, because the CDC and HRSA, which is the agency in HHS that fights vaccine injury claims, asked the IOM to look at whether DTaP causes autism, because it remained one of the most commonly”
    unidentified speaker · The Joe Rogan Experience · 2026-03-03 · 2:07:32 cites a study
What each side never hears

Listeners of “No, such comparative studies either have not been conducted or are insufficient to assess autism.” have not heard (1 argument)

Zukerman's point that multiple large studies involving well over a million children found no link between the MMR vaccine and autism diagnoses.

1 unanswered argument, in their words
  • “One of the first follow-up studies looked at every kid diagnosed with autism in a part of the UK. This was almost 500 kids, and it found no link between the measles, mumps, and rubella vaccine and autism. Soon, more and more studies would come out involving well over a million children, all showing no connection between getting the vaccine”
    Wendy Zukerman · Science Vs · 2025-11-27 · well over a million childrenunanswered for 49 weeks

Listeners of “Yes, such comparative studies exist assessing health outcomes and potential links between vaccines and autism.” have not heard (2 arguments)

Siri's point that the CDC has not produced studies showing that DTaP and other early‑life vaccines do not cause autism, even after a 2020 court order.

2 unanswered arguments, in their words
  • “the judge entered as an order of the court in 2020. So here it is, I've got, what more can I do to get the science? I mean, I literally sued them, chased them through federal court, and this was what they could produce. And, you know, I've since 2020 still see nothing.”
    Aaron Siri · DarkHorse Podcast · 2025-12-24 · 2020 court stipulation with CDC and DOJunanswered for 45 weeks
  • “I literally sued them, chased them through federal court, and this was what they could produce. And, you know, I've since 2020 still see nothing. We've even given them another chance. ... They still have not produced any studies to support that that claim doesn't cause autism.”
    Aaron Siri · DarkHorse Podcast · 2025-12-24 · 2020 federal court stipulation in Southern District of New Yorkunanswered for 45 weeks
Bottom line

Position 0 leans on claims of three non‑government comparative studies and at least 60 vaccinated–unvaccinated health comparisons, which Siri's schedule‑focused critiques do not discuss. Position 1 leans on Institute of Medicine reviews and the CDC's lack of produced DTaP–autism studies, which Zukerman and Tenpenny's statements do not address.

2 arguments the other side has addressed
Argument
“in 2013, right, the Institute of Medicine was commissioned by HHS to, to, to look at the safety of the entire child immunization schedule. ... what they said is, we can't find any studies that compare vaccinated with unvaccinated kids, which is what we would need.”
Aaron Siri · DarkHorse Podcast · 2025-12-24 · 2:33:17
Addressed by
“there were no, they had never done a study, there are now three, but not done by the government, of comparing Vaccinated kids to unvaccinated kids for all health outcomes”
Gavin de Becker · The Joe Rogan Experience · 2025-11-13 · 1:19:06 · different episodes
Argument
“there were no, they had never done a study, there are now three, but not done by the government, of comparing Vaccinated kids to unvaccinated kids for all health outcomes”
Gavin de Becker · The Joe Rogan Experience · 2025-11-13 · 1:19:06
Addressed by
“in 2013, right, the Institute of Medicine was commissioned by HHS to, to, to look at the safety of the entire child immunization schedule. ... what they said is, we can't find any studies that compare vaccinated with unvaccinated kids, which is what we would need.”
Aaron Siri · DarkHorse Podcast · 2025-12-24 · 2:33:17 · different episodes
What changed

Published because: 4 shows, 2 positions, 110 days of debate. Questions publish only when claims come from at least three shows, at least two positions are held by different people, and the debate has lasted two weeks.

Pairs are matched by content across different episodes and shows; no exchange between these speakers took place unless both quotes come from the same episode.

The prose on this page is written by a model from the quotes shown, and every sentence of it rests on quotes you can open; sentences that could not be traced to a quote were removed before publishing. Positions are placed from each speaker's own words. Evidence labels say what the speaker cited, never whether it is true.

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